2:00:28 PM

Harris

Call to order.

 2:00:33 PM

Harris

Commissioner Ken Welch is otherwise engaged and won't be able to make our meeting, but we need to begin with Mr. Pound and need to have everybody state their names so that the Clerk can get your correct names for the minutes; we'll start with you, Greg. 

Identification:

Greg Pound;  Paul McClintock, Pasco Council; Reverend Bruce Wright, Refuge Ministries, Pinellas County Juvenile Justice Council.

 2:00:34 PM

Plyer

Are the people who are speaking, are they members of the board?

 2:01:49 PM

Harris

That's what I just said, Dave.  That’s exactly what I said and if you would just identify yourself and worry about those things that you are responsible for.  Thank you.

 2:01:52 PM

Plyer

 Dave Plyer, representing the Pinellas County Juvenile Justice Council, member of the board.

 2:01:53 PM

Harris

 Thank you.

 2:01:54 PM

Identification continues

Lavetta Waters, Department of Juvenile Justice, Community Partnership Coordinator.

Corry

Shouts from the audience:  Not a board member

Identification continues

Tony Leisner, WorkNet Board Treasurer.

Plyer

Not a board member.

Harris

Mr. Leisner is a new board member.

Plyer

No, Mr. Leisner is not…

Harris

He is a new board member.

Corry

Shouts from audience violation of the statute

Plyer

Elected by the, appointed by Pasco County?

 2:02:02 PM

Harris

 No.  If you will read your agenda you will see that there…

Plyer

See what where?

Harris

and when we get to that point you will all get to vote on it.

 2:02:12 PM

Plyer

Absolutely not.  There are laws concerning the appointment of members to this board (bangs on table) and this person as pleasant as he may be and as uninformed as he may be about the politics here, is not yet a member of this board.  He has not been appointed by either Pasco County Council or the Pinellas County Council and he is not a statutory member.  So, for those reasons he is not a board member.

 2:02:40 PM

Harris

Thank you, Dave.

 2:02:44 PM

Wright

Excuse me.  If I can concur with that he is not a board member because he has to be appointed according to statute by both one or the other, the Pinellas County Juvenile Justice Council Board or the Pasco County.  Now, if he is appointed by Pasco, then we need to know, but otherwise if he is coming from Pinellas County he cannot be appointed without the approval of the Council appointing him, and you know that, sir.

Plyer

It’s the law.

 2:03:11 PM

Harris

If you would read your By-laws, according to the By-laws, the board can be expanded in certain areas and those appointments don't have to come from either one.  And we talked about this at the last meeting and…

Plyer

Moot point.

Harris

Would you let me finish, please, sir.  We talked about this at the last meeting.  We said that we were going to expand our board and we were looking for two areas:  from labor, and he certainly is coming from the WorkNet board, and then it said those under-represented areas, and we are still looking for people from the provider community.  Now, I don't know what that's so difficult to understand.

 2:03:49 PM

Plyer

 What is difficult to understand is that at the last minute you were going to send we motions to DJJ for their approval, to look at it to see if it was legal.  Then, those motions to expand the board, to term limits, would be then moved and approved, seconded, approved, discussed, given that the board was presented with sufficient time to review the proposed changes.  Nothing in those motions, nothing in the statutes gives you or the executive committee of this board the authority to appoint anybody.  So, before you embarrass him further you might get that clarified.

o

 2:04:42 PM

Harris

Well, before you embarrass yourself further you might read your agenda where we will eventually get to that where you will get to vote on Mr. Leisner.

 2:04:46 PM

Plyer

Then he is not a member of the board at this time.

 2:04:48 PM

Corry

Shouts from the audience: This is not the corrupt Pinellas County Board of County Commissioners...

 2:04:54 PM

Unidentified

Shouts from the audience: Under what authority? Under what statute...read us the statue...

 2:05:01 PM

Identification continues

I’m Martha Lenderman.  I’m appointed here by the Pasco Council and a member of the board.  Tim Niermann, Department of Juvenile Justice; Teri Simpson, Pasco Juvenile Justice Council; Lt. Barbara Taylor, Pasco County Sheriff, Pasco Board; Norm Roche, Pinellas Council Board;  Raymond Gross, Circuit Court; Vance Arnett, State Attorney's Office.

 2:05:36 PM

Harris

Okay.  We do have a quorum.  We have minutes from our last meeting.  The Chair will entertain a motion...

Corry

Shouts from the audience, Who are the other absent members?  Where was the roll call?  There’s other absent members.

Plyer

Who is not present today?

Corry

Shouts from the audience, Just follow the darn rules, that’s all you have to do.

Unidentified

From the audience, I have kids that said they didn’t want to come because they didn’t want to see adults break the law…

 2:06:04 PM

Harris

 Is there a motion to approve the minutes? 

Lenderman

Move approval.

McClintock

Second.

 2:06:15 PM

Plyer

 I have corrections.

 2:06:21 PM

Wright

 And I have questions about the minutes.

 2:06:23 PM

Harris

 Well, we can only have one of the talking heads speak at a time...Reverend Wright?

 2:06:24 PM

Wright

 According to this, it says, and I quote, in our New Business, that a proposal to increase the size of the board would be considered.  Not that it's been done.  And that it was to be, according to these minutes, checked out according to state statute and the Department of Juvenile Justice.  Unless it's been checked out according to state statute and by the Department of Juvenile Justice, then it is not appropriate to even consider adding more to the board.  This is in our own minutes here that we discussed this.  So, I want that noted in the record that this was discussed at the last meeting and that this cannot be done unless those two things have been done.

 2:06:27 PM

Harris

 Thank you.  Mr. Plyer.

 2:07:18 PM

Plyer

Okay, corrections to the draft minutes of the Circuit 6 Juvenile Justice Board meeting of July 16th.  Item 1.  Page one, title, beneath the date July 16, 2007, add the word "draft" followed by the name of the author and the date the draft was written.  Item 2.  On the list of members present, remove the name Lieutenant Barbara Taylor.  Item 3.  Page two, Welcome Call to Order Quorum Count.  End of the first sentence, to the words "whereupon Mr. Plyer requested a roll call," add "which was denied by the Chair."  Item 4.  Page three, Pinellas County JJC Report.  First paragraph, line four, replace the words "and a letter regarding Chairman Harris from the Pinellas County JJC" with "a letter demanding a written apology from Chairman Harris for his despicable behavior towards the Pinellas County JJC."  Item 5.  Page Six, Public Comment:  End of the sentence replace "Reese Stearns expressed his concerns" with "Ryis Stearns asked the board to apologize for insinuating that he would shoot up a school.  There was no response from the board."  And that concludes my corrections.

 2:09:12 PM

Harris

Well, we don't take those as corrections; those are suggestions and if you want to pass those in, you can pass those in.  We will entertain a motion to approve the minutes...

 2:09:20 PM

Wright

Those are corrections, sir...

 2:09:13 PM

Plyer

As corrected...

 2:09:22 PM

Taylor

May I inquire as to why I am taken off the list?

 2:09:24 PM

Plyer

Because at the last meeting you were found not to be a board member.

 2:09:30 PM

Harris

No, she is a board member.

 2:09:33 PM

Taylor

I believe I was found to be a board member.

 2:09:40 PM

Plyer

This is a record of what happened at last meeting...

 2:09:49 PM

Harris

Mr. Plyer, one of the things you are going to have to understand is that you are not the fount of knowledge or the keeper of everything that's true and great and honest, and we are going to conduct business whether you and your hand-picked band of...obstructionists...we are going to conduct business…

 2:10:08 PM

Wright

Okay, are you getting this John, if you're going to refer to me that way, excuse me, this is my legal observer and you are going to hearing from my lawyer...thank you.  You are being disrespectful to us...

 2:10:19 PM

Harris

 Okay, we've got a motion to approve; and (to Lt. Taylor) you are a member and you will be included in the minutes and you are supposed to be here today because you are appointed and you are a member of the Pasco Council.  All in favor of the minutes? 

Corry

Shouts from the audience, She was not a member at the last meeting

Plyer

As corrected, as corrected, as corrected…

Lenderman

That is not my motion.  Aye.

Harris

Those opposed.  Several nays.  Okay, let's do a hand.  All in favor of the minutes, would you raise your right hand please; seven in favor; all opposed to the minutes as presented, raise your hand; four opposed..  The minutes stand approved.   Now we’ll go to the council reports and we’ll begin with the Pinellas Council.

 2:11:14 PM

Plyer

 Before we move on, I would like a roll call vote.  I am entitled to it as a member of the board and I would like a roll call vote.

 2:11:24 PM

Harris

 You certainly are.  To Ms. Lenderman, would you call the roll for...

 2:11:32 PM

Waters (roll call)

Mr. Paul McClintock - Aye

Ms. Teri Simpson - Aye

Hon. Calvin Harris - Aye

Ms. Martha Lenderman - Aye

Mr. David Plyer - Nay

Rev. Bruce Wright - Nay

Mr. Greg Pound - Nay Mr. Norm Roche - Nay

Mr. Vance Arnett - Aye

Hon. Raymond Gross - Aye

Lt. Barbara Taylor - Aye 

 2:12:31 PM

Harris

So the ayes have it; motion passes 7 to 4 in favor.  Now, we'll have the Pinellas Council Report from Mr. Plyer.

 2:12:32 PM

Plyer

Susan Biszewski-Eber resigned from the Circuit 6 Juvenile Justice Board.  She emailed her letter of resignation to council chair Dave Plyer on July 30, 2007.  Ms. Biszewski-Eber, Director of Middle School Programs YMCA of Greater St. Petersburg was appointed to the board by the Pinellas County Juvenile Justice Council on October 26, 2006.  The Council, at its next meeting, is scheduled to appoint a new member to the Circuit 6 Juvenile Justice Board to fill this vacancy.  In addition, the Council is also scheduled to elect its officers for the coming year.  The Council has not yet received a written apology from Circuit 6 Juvenile Justice Board Chair, Calvin Harris, for his despicable behavior towards the Council.  The next meeting of the Pinellas County Juvenile Justice Council is Thursday, September 27, 2007, at the Seminole Community Library.  For more information about the Council, visit its website at PinellasJJC.org.

 2:13:56 PM

Harris

Any questions?

 2:14:00 PM

Roche

I was inquiring earlier about Mr. Waller and his involvement or lack of presence at the board, and what I was recommending was that if indeed we have one resignation, a vacancy, and Mr. Waller is unable to participate in this board, that that be counted as two and then, pursuant to the discussions earlier about representation, that perhaps we seek two from the Pinellas side, representation of labor and representation of a provider, to fill those two spots which might down the road lend itself to not even needing to expand the board if we can get the appropriate representation that we're seeking on that board.  So that would be my input and perhaps recommendation.  I don't know if it's a recommendation or what have you perhaps filling those two spots with what we’re seeking to get that balance might help towards in that way.

 2:15:09 PM

Plyer

The Council is in contact with Mr. Waller to see what his intentions are.  He does not report to the Council. He has no affiliation with the Council.  The Council simply appointed him to the board in the hopes that he would bring a new pair of eyes, ears and mouth to the board.  He has not attended and so we are exploring what his plans are.

 2:15:41 PM

Roche

Would he have to be removed by virtue of by-laws by the board in order for that vacancy to happen or is it something that you would, or in other words is it something that we would in other words is there protocol...

 2:15:52 PM

Harris

Yes, there is; in the by-laws.  And since he has never attended a meeting and he in essence is not a member because he would be removed for never attending and...

 2:16:11 PM

Lenderman

I can remember...was it consecutive?  I think it was consecutive…

 2:16:18 PM

Harris

And not only has he never attended but he has never in any way indicated that he couldn't come but that he had an interest in attending so for all practical purposes that is a vacancy and Ms. Eber did resign but the resignation, I mean she has never attended so...

 2:16:44 PM

Corry

Shouts from the audience, She has too attended.

 2:16:45 PM

Roche

So that would make two vacancies existing right now?

 2:16:49 PM

Harris

Yes, for the Pinellas Council.

 2:16:50 PM

Plyer

No, not at the moment.  We have one vacancy.  The board has the option, at this meeting I would suspect, to remove Mr. Waller as a board member for lack of attendance.

 2:17:05 PM

Roche

But is it your assertion that perhaps out of just common courtesy we're waiting to hear from him?

 2:17:23 PM

Plyer

Well, he has been asked for his opinion, I'm deferring to my...to Wright, have you talked to him?

Wright

No, I have not heard.

Plyer

We have not had contact with him.

 2:17:26 PM

Harris

But he is a Pinellas member so we are not, maybe if we spent some of our time instead of waiting for apologies that are not coming, we could find members and find out why they are not there, but we are not going to remove them.  We will let them determine whether or not it's important for their members to come to the meeting.  We are not going to do that.  But, even if, the members that we are talking about adding are not according to the by-laws they don't come under the Pasco or the Pinellas.  They are elected members and so we can add those.  The by-laws say that.  We can't just be selective in our reading of the by-laws.  You’ve either got to accept them or you don't.  You can't, because the same people now who are saying "Well, Tallahassee ought to say that" used to come to these meetings and say "Well, we're independent.  We don't need them to say whether we can do these things, but whether, regardless of that, the by-laws say we can add up to three members from underrepresented areas and they one member from labor and so that is our intention, and so we have one of those members, we have one of those members here today and you will have the opportunity to vote on that.

 2:18:47 PM

Pound

I would like to make a motion that we remove Waller for nonattendance.

 2:18:53 PM

Roche

I would second that.

 2:19:00 PM

Harris

Is there any discussion?  Now, Mr. Plyer, you said that you are still trying to communicate with him, right?

 2:19:07 PM

Plyer

That is correct and we have not received any response.  He understands the situation, but it is the board's prerogative to remove him for that.  That is a decision that the board as a whole can take, I believe, according to the by-laws.

 2:19:09 PM

Harris

Yes... The board, we are not in any hurry to do that.  If you want more time to communicate with him, then maybe Mr. Pound will withdraw his motion.

 2:19:41 PM

Plyer

Thank you.  We'll give him one more chance and I will convey to him that the board is now considering…

 2:19:48 PM

Pound

David, I really think he should be withdrawn, I mean he hasn’t been here…

 2:19:59 PM

Plyer

Okay.  I'll take that back.  It is Mr. Pound's motion.

 2:19:59 PM

Roche

Call the question.

 2:20:05 PM

Harris

All right, we have a motion to remove Mr. Waller and let us do a roll call again on that motion.

Waters

Vance Arnett - aye

Judge Gross - nay

Lt. Barbara Taylor - nay

Ms. Teri Simpson - nay

Hon. Calvin Harris - nay

Ms. Martha Lenderman - nay

Mr. David Plyer - nay 

McClintock

Would you restate the motion please?

Harris

The motion is to remove and I think what everybody is saying is they would like to give the council the opportunity to communicate with him.

Roche

If I withdraw the second, will that…

Harris

Well, we’ll just vote on it.  We’ve already started it now so we’ve got to complete it.  Okay.  Mr. Plyer, she was at you?

Waters

Dave Plyer repeats – nay

Rev. Bruce Wright - nay

Mr. Pound - yea

Mr. Norm Roche - nay

Mr. McClintock – nay

 2:20:39 PM

Harris

So the nay's have it.  Mr. Waller will not be removed by action of the board and the Pinellas Council will now have the opportunity to communicate with him and find out what his intentions are.

 2:22:07 PM

Lenderman

If they appoint someone in the interim they could take that seat as of the next meeting, is that correct?

 2:22:17 PM

Harris

Yes.  Is there anything else from the Pinellas Council?

 2:22:22 PM

Plyer

That's all the council has to report.

 2:22:23 PM

Harris

Mr. McClintock, are you giving the Pasco report today?

 2:22:27 PM

McClintock

As unprepared as I am, I'll make an effort.  We did have the meeting on the specified date which I don't have in front of me.  It was about two weeks ago on a Thursday, but we did not have a quorum so we couldn't decide or meet or vote or anything and in any case we decided as a group that we would make an effort to have better attendance.  That happened also to be the first Thursday of school and most of our, a lot of our council members are school board members or working for the school board.  That completes Pasco County.

 2:23:12 PM

Harris

Okay, are there any questions for Pasco County?  Okay, Mr. Niermann.

 2:23:22 PM

Niermann

I think I want to take our time at least the DJJ probation community time, to talk a little bit this afternoon about the Blueprint Commission.  I think a number of you may have heard about or gotten some information on it.  I have a couple of handouts here for us.  We're pretty fortunate in the Circuit that we actually have two members from Pinellas County on it.  I'm going to pass out the make up also.  But, the bottom line with the Blueprint Commission is that they're holding a series of basically six hearings throughout the state, and they've already started.  The first one was in Fort Lauderdale and the next one coming up is going to be in Jacksonville on September 25th and 26th.  We're going to have one in Tampa, Hillsborough County, on October 29th and 30th.  Each of the Commission hearings, or meetings, I don't think they're really hearings, well maybe they are hearings, but anyway the bottom line is that they are going to have a focus and a topic which is part of the handouts that I sent to you and then they're also going to take public commentary.  And they're tweaking them each time they have them.  The one in Fort Lauderdale started around noon time, they went through the expert to talk about the topic and they started taking public commentary around 3:00 or 4:00 p.m. and it went on I believe until 8:00 at night.  They are time-limited so everyone can have a voice in it.  I would encourage everyone and anyone that's interested to try to make a point to attend.  I'm going to pass out the make up of the commission.  We have from our Circuit which is Pinellas Pasco County, Judge Irene Sullivan is a sitting member and also the Director of Human Rights for the County, which is Mr. Leon Russell, so we have some folks.  If you can't make the hearings you can certainly try to put a phone call in to our two representatives and they're only two of 25.  They have a real varied assortment of people on the commission.  There is a meeting in early October in Orlando and then the one closest to us is at the end so if you have an opportunity I strongly urge you all to go.  You know, we have various different opinions even in the room here today about how well the system does or does not work and so this will be a golden opportunity.  Right on the heals as we know in early October the Legislature meets again for a special session to reduce I believe the minimum of $1.1 or $1.4 billion from the state budget so again, there is some early indication that unfortunately DJJ is going to take a chunk of the hits again which is projected to be $39 million and there's some various...it's in there and we took a significant reduction in 2001 which resulted in the position we lost state-wide around 650 positions along with a number of contracted dollars back then and unfortunately it looks like we're going to take a good chunk this time again.  It's extremely difficult to maintain whatever level of services we have, whatever opinion you have of us, when they keep reducing funding.  The Senate I believe was looking at an across-the-board reduction of a certain percentages and the House of Representatives was looking at what they call targeted so some departments or agencies could take a greater share.  Right now, according to the St. Pete Times, and I'm not sure where they got their facts but the last article they reported on was that higher education, the State Universities and Community Colleges, and DJJ is kind of like at the top of that ladder of reductions.  So, again I think this would be an opportunity to come and give some input.  State employees like myself and a couple of others in the room, we don't have the ability to lobby.  We're not lobbying, we're just saying please come and give some input.  Along with the budget, they're also talking about some of our practices and procedures and the ways we do business.  If there are some things that don't make sense to you, please come and give the commission your opinion.  These only come along every once in a while.  When we formed our department in 1994, we had a similar process, a lot of input from the community and stakeholders, and this I think is going to be the second great opportunity that we have.  Secretary McNeil's committed to hearing ideas.  There's a number of statutes on the books right now that we have no funding for, we really can't enforce.  Judge Gross deals each and every day with a myth called home detention.  If a youth does not have a probation officer, there really is no home detention but it's a legal status in the statutes.  So, it's frustrating to everyone around.  It's frustrating to the parents, it's frustrating to the Courts, it's frustrating to DJJ and the kids, you know, don't really have anyone looking after them closely.  So, it's really not a good message for them, too.  So, please take this opportunity.  We have some notice here.  It's the end of October so we got some time yet.  So, if your schedule would permit it, I encourage you to become involved.

 2:28:55 PM

Wright

How was the Blueprint Commission determined who'd be on it and I'm curious, I did see a youth representative which is great but I didn't see a parent on there, though.  But maybe I'm not reading it right.

 2:29:06 PM

Niermann

Bruce, every Circuit provided some input as to who we've got that would be good for it and then the final decision was a headquarters decision; I can't tell you the exact personnel who made final decision but there was, you know, people could nominate themselves, there were some I believe that the rosters of all the councils and boards were sent up and so on and so forth.  I don't know how the exact how the final decision was made.

 2:29:26 PM

Wright

Thank you.

 2:29:36 PM

Lenderman

I was just actually going to go back and ask about the budget cuts.  I’ve  heard, now this is only anecdotally, the bad news is DJJ is getting cut much more deeply as a result of sparing certain other programs, but within DJJ my understanding, again good news and bad news, is that the prevention/early intervention programs have been dealt much more gently on it in terms of the CINS/FINS, that sort of a thing.  I mean, that's good news.  I'm just sorry it's been at the expense of other essential services, too.  Can you give us any more information on how you think that's going to fall out given what we know today?

 2:30:22 PM

Niermann

What I will do is so I can talk with authority because I didn't bring them all along with me this afternoon is I will email that over to Lavetta and she can send it; out to the board members each area, I know from just what I can recall, and sometimes when you recall from memory it's not always perfect, but they were talking about as far as staffing reductions, the bulk of those staffing reductions are coming in the detention branch where they're talking about the closing of two detention centers, one is in Key West and one is in St. John's County which is between Jacksonville and Daytona Beach.  That comes out to the equivalent of about 72 positions.  In a number of the other areas there's been a number of dollars targeted towards the contract side.  I know for instance, we got a huge initiative in community intervention the last couple of years called the Redirection Program and what it does is provide in-home counseling for folks that where they're having some family difficulties and that was supposed to expand this year by $6 million.  $3 million has been cut out of it.  But, one of Secretary McNeil's priorities is prevention and so while I believe that there are some, to come up with $39 million, it's not real easy to do so all areas are impacted; there is some softening on the upfront that I do believe that, I'm not sure if CINS/FINS (Children in need of services/Families in need of services) was totally spared but their budget reduction was reduced and they also talked about some PACE (Practical, Academic Cultural Education) programs and of course that stuff programs we have statewide that deal with girls only so we're trying to find some programs that will deal specifically gender so I will, and again, the document that we have is only as good as the day it was printed because things change like hourly but I can get you the information probably at least a week or so old.

 2:32:19 PM

McClintock

Some of you’ve heard me mention this before, if they cut back far enough…I don’t know if the state realizes that, remembers that we’re the tipping point and if they cut back far enough they’re going to lose the possibility of federal backing funds, funds that they have us match from the Feds.  If they’re not assessing so many funds to it, then we’ll lose the funds, too.  That would be a killer.  Also, are they aware that places like and I’ll use as an example, San Antonio Boys Village.  It’s still operating on funding that they appropriated on 1984.  That’s horrible.  They’ve increased the number of boys that they have to take care of there.  I mean, I know you know.  And what do they do?  They have to cut back on a daily, weekly, monthly, annually basis but now, we’re going to cut them back some more.  We’re going to reach the tipping point where they going to say we just cant do it any more.  And we’re going to lose them.  And we’re going to lost PACE if we keep messing with that.  These are successful programs.  If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it.  I know it’s not your fault.

 2:33:26 PM

Niermann

And statewide, you know, unfortunately the economy is slowed pretty significantly.  I know if anyone in here is trying to move some real estate you’ll find the impact on that and the money is just not being generated so unfortunately it’s…and again if we don’t have an impact with the youth in the juvenile system, they’re going to corrects.  Now, corrections has been, you know, they’re affected to.  Corrections actually has where they are proposing to eliminate 172 adult probation officers statewide.  Now, you k now, that’s a pretty significant blow, too, so it’s a situation is I don’t think any agency or department is going to come out unscathed as well with, you know, the counties and the cities.  In the past six weeks or two months we’ve been just reading about reductions, reductions, reductions.

 2:34:23 PM

McClintock

And also it was my understanding that the possibility of when they cut back on the CINS/FINS that they’re going to take that fund and put it into some real tough areas.  Like, I will use as an example only, South St. Pete, Liberty City of Miami and those areas which we can probably save six or eight or a hundred kids, but if we take it away from CINS/FINS, they we may be losing 850 or 8,500, I have no idea what the numbers would be, but it’s well spent, needed money, but it’s being taken from Peter to, robbing Peter to pay Paul

 2:35:00 PM

Niermann

I have not seen the  most recent, cause I knew that CINS/FINS was going to be impacted very significantly like you mentioned, Paul, and it’s my recent information that it’s been revised and they’ve been spared quite a bit.  And you’re right, if you don’t, the earlier you intervene with the youth, the more successful the youth is going to be.  If you wait ‘til they get into multiple offenses, get in our commitment programs and stuff like that, there’s the likelihood of being able to have them totally squared away lessens.  So, we’re on guard.  I’m not going to take up the rest of the board meeting with the woes of DJJ, but we’re definitely on guard.  We have, we’re very fortunate in this Circuit in it’s public record but we have two detention centers, we have two PACE Programs, one in Pasco, one in Pinellas and a detention center in Pinellas and Pasco.  We’re pretty well off in the Circuit and that’s a direct result of all the hard work of everybody here.  And all the advocating and lobbying throughout the years.  So, you know, I’ve not heard where we are going to be closing anything in the Circuit, so that’s a good thing. But we have to also be sensitive to areas, for instance, Key West detention.  It’s only ten beds and you say well why do you need it?  Well, it’s an eight-hour drive from Key West to Miami.  So when a youth is detained, they’re put, well they used to be put in a little room down on the first floor of the jail or whatever.  They’re put in a van the next day and driven eight hours to the Miami detention center.  So now you know there’s a proposal to close that down.  Will they survive?  Yes, they will.  But the logistics involved…Now they’re threatening gas is going to go over $3.00 a gallon and just transporting, just the issues of transporting.  O there’s a lot of detriments there and I k Know Mr. Uliasz is here with us today from Pinellas detention.  I don’t know, Jim, if you have any other updates from the detention world or as far as you know any thoughts that anyone has put out there…